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ASK Maureen (Sourcing/Research HELP) Discussions « back to group
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I had an unsettling comment from one of the readers in our group last week ?it was in response to asking the group if you all had any techniques on sourcing you?d like to share. To the reader who sent me these comments: I?m posting them here because I think it?s important to get some of the good subjects you raise up on the table for discussion. You will remain anonymous. I?m posting this to get others to offer their comments/insights/knowledge into the discussion ? it?s a subject that there is a lot of misinformation about.
?I don't know anything about snooping or have any great techniques. The only experience I have with this is from the other end. As a former HR Manager, I would instruct my department (which included the Receptionist) to not give any info out. I believe it is illegal to misrepresent yourself as you mentioned. I did have a "gentleman's promise" with a competitor to not solicit people from our competitor. It's different working corp to corp. As a third party, I would think you couldn't get into much trouble. I don't use Caller ID Block. Is it easy to turn on and off? Thanks for the advice,?
The email sent me scurrying to some of the foremost experts I could find here on ERE. ?Illegal?? I asked. ?Can someone tell me? I want to know!? Promising to abide by their advice, I asked,?Can anyone give me some advice on the subject of legality? It is my understanding IT IS ILLEGAL to represent yourself as being from any governmental authority ? local state or federal, but for the rest, it?s fair game, as long as I can live with myself. Am I incorrect in this? Does anyone have any ideas? Nobody else seems to know when I ask about this in the groups."
Some of the responses from some of our esteemed colleagues are listed below. Please note: None of the people I asked for advice are attorneys, if you're still troubled by how many sourcers and recruiters find talent, you should contact your own counsel.
?I'm not a legal guy, but my understanding is you're dealing with the gray area of ethics and reputation, but not any state or federal laws, in the phone sourcing methods you've described in your last few posts. Our area SHRM chapter has an affiliation with an employment law firm where members can submit questions for free answers. (I suspect SHRM itself offers such a Q&A service, as I know you can submit research questions, though I don't know how deep they go with legal topics. Ditto for Recruiting Roundtable, a division of the Corporate Executive Board.)?
?Training receptionists to identify and screen out recruiters is fairly standard. You can't really stop the calls or the misrepresentation but you can identify who might be looking for a job and treat them well so they don't pick up the phone in the first place. Remember recruiters can also find them on the internet. Will they restrict that also (good luck)? ?I did have a "gentleman's promise" with a competitor to not solicit people from our competitor.? Talk about illegal. They are restricting the freedom of employees to freely move to other jobs.?
?Nothing illegal unless you represent yourself as an officer of the law, court, or owner of a Krispy Kreme franchise... As far as instructing the receptionistas not to divulge any info, heck, that's always the first thing I do when I come inside. With respect to corp-to-corp recruiting, there are a few rabid TPRs who believe that all corp-to-corp recruiting is tortuous interference. Again, horse hockey as long as you don't have a plan to decimate a competitor by recruiting everyone away. In-housers often run the risk of getting slammed when they do something stupid - which is different, IMHO, than the ruses run by Maureen. So is the person really asking you how to turn caller ID block on and off? Yeesh, what should be call you now Maureen - MT&T??
So I answered? I THINK _______hits it squarely on the head when he says ?as long as you don't have a plan to decimate a competitor? but?what do I know? I know some people don?t want to go here, but after all, this is supposed to be a forum where we can learn things, and, to me, this is the most glaring lack of information out there (again, I say to me, in my limited it?s-all-about-me-world). BUT I can tell you guys this, I get a lot of queries on the subject in email and on the telephone. I tell them what I believe to be true, but the lack of input and general sense of confusion I get on the other end tells me nobody really knows and some are more willing to go to ?it?s illegal? than not. Case in point: this example.
And one of my compatriots also commented: ?There are the doomsayers out there in TPR land who believe that all corporate recruiters are stupid beyond hope and will only get their employer sued if they continue to recruit from a desk down from the water cooler (it's true, one of these TPRs called me two days ago and remained steadfast in their belief that the tortuous interference law suits will be multiplying like bunny rabbits on a cool summer day). One, Tortuous Interference is EXCEPTIONALLY DIFFICULT to prove, and two, a little bit of common sense and a recruiting plan that is written down on paper can radically reduce one's exposure. Even one of the most seminal cases (Federated v. Herbert Mines Associates) was never adjudicated and the department store and the search firm actually remain great working partners today (I know this because I know the principals of the search firm). Nonetheless, there are a few guidelines that fall under the common sense category (e.g., "Do you have an employment contract that may prohibit you from working for us? Would you please send us a copy so we can review it and determine if we're gonna get sued by recruiting you? Thanks, have a nice day!"). Recruiters and sourcers just have to keep themselves from shooting themselves in the foot. Outrageous sourcing? Let's just have a contest on the ERE- what would you really like to do to source and recruit candidates that you never tried because you (a) were too fraidy scared, (b) you were married to an attorney, or (c) no one ever gave you permission to think outside the box? Essentially, what would you like to do even if it were illegal, immoral or fattening? I'm serious- part of the creativity process is putting to rest one's superego and just winging out ideas, what if's, etc. Guaranteed we'll uncover things that will become part of recruiting lore.?
This commentator also offered the following website as a source of information/from a DC law firm on Recruitment Guidelines: http://www.careerjournal.com/recruiters/workingwith/19990115-quick.html
Okay group, let?s have it. Your thoughts, your concerns, your techniques, you know, the stuff you mumble about in your sleep?That is, if you?re not too ?fraidy scared?
And, as a last aside, provided by one of our esteemed colleagues: ?from Henry Drummond (played by Spencer Tracy) in "Inherit the Wind" - ?Yes there is something holy to me! The power of the individual human mind. In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "Amens!," "Holy, Holies!" and "Hosannahs!" An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is more of a miracle than any sticks turned to snakes, or the parting of waters. But are we now to halt the march of progress because Mr. Brady frightens us with a fable? (to the jury) Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You've got to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man behind a counter who says, "All right, you can have a telephone; but you'll have to give up privacy, the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote; but at a price; you lose the right to retreat behind a powderpuff or a petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air; but the birds will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline!" Darwin moved us forward to a hilltop, where we could look back and see the way from which we came. But for this view, this insight, this knowledge, we must abandon our faith in the pleasant poetry of Genesis.?
Please let us know in follow-ups here if any of what you're about to receive is helpful.
Our goal is to save you time and help you succeed.
Maureen Sharib Names Sourcer www/techtrak.com 513 899 9628 maureen@techtrak.com Invite me to your LinkedIn network!
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Jeff, recently you asked me why I insist on fanning the flames around the controversies surrounding sourcing.
There are several reasons and this string demonstrates some of them.
But the BIGGEST REASON I have poked and prodded the subject these past few years is to get the discussion OUT IN THE OPEN because when I first came on the scene here on ERE sourcing was barely spoken about - it was relegated to the shadowy back rooms - misunderstood and misinterpreted - and, as I recall, received with some abhorrence here on the boards.
I firmly believe that if people UNDERSTAND what sourcing IS (many STILL don't get this - hard as THAT is to believe!) and what it ISN'T sourcing will be better received and adopted within organizations and allowed to bring its own huge value-add to the profit stream.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
;) ****** Do something today you don't think you can do.
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Caron,
Those rules are golden. I knew I was nice to receptionists for a reason!
Regards,
Violet Bliss
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I meant:
Let's all have AT it!
Maureen
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Caron, this is a FABULOUS post! Just great! Real time information we can take and apply everday in our work. And the fact that you were a Gatekeeper - just awesome and even better! Field experience!
Caron, take this post and put it up in a new discussion here on ASK - call it Getting Past the Gatekeeper: Tips & Techniques - and let's ALL HAVE IT!!
THANKS SO MUCH for posting this! This is exactly what we'd all love to see more out of the group on!
Please let us know in follow-ups here if any of what you're about to receive is helpful.
Our goal is to save you time and help you succeed.
Maureen Sharib Names Sourcer www.techtrak.com 513 899 9628 Maureen@techtrak.com Invite me to your LinkedIn, ERE and openBC networks!
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Rule #6 is very important. At my last job I sometimes sat in for our receptionist when she was at lunch or ill. It was quite an eye opener. Both for people in person and on the phone.
I always ask my receptionist to let me know if someone was particularly rude (or gracious) with her.
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Confessions of a former gatekeeper: First, my qualifications. Second, my list of gatekeeper "rules"
I started my working life Lo! These many years ago as a receptionist in a law office. I was a flighty little 18-year-old girl who was told to keep people at bay. There are people a lawyer wants to talk to and there are people a lawyer doesn't want to talk to.
A few years later as a slightly less flighty 24-year-old, I got a receptionist position in the executive suite of a big manufacturing company. Corporate HQ was in another state: I was the guard dog for the CEO, CFO, Controller and VP of HR (in a union environment). Under them were the worker bees directly involved in doing secret mission C-suite type of work. Let's just say at this level, there are a lot of people who don't want to talk to a lot of other people.
Then I went to college and at a hardly flighty 30 years old I got a job with Olsten Staffing Services. I was required to pound the pavement every single day - no telephone work for me unless I did it from home. Did I apply my experience as gatekeeper? You bet I did. Here's what I know (apologies for the gender roles below):
Rule #1: A receptionist also has ethical issues to grapple with on a daily basis. Rule #2: A good receptionist is lying from the moment she sits down at 8:00 until the moment she leaves at 5:00. Rule #3: Her job is not so much to help you as to keep you away while making you think she is helping you. Rule #4: When she is gone after 5:00, it's true that the CEO will pick up the phone himself. Rule #5: A bad receptionist is easy to spot. A good receptionist should know enough to be a 'smiling assassin.' In other words, you don't know for sure how much her brain is recording and to whom she is relaying the information. Rule #6: When you are physically in front of a receptionist, be careful of everything. Someone in HR or an executive assistant will ask her how you acted, how you treated her, what you said and what you did while you cooled your heels in front of her. And you thought you sat there for no reason, didn't you? Rule #7: She WILL remember your voice. Rule #8: She will remember if you ticked her off the first or even the 15th time you called. Rule #9: She does have a sense of humor. Rule #10: It is hard to deflect a heartfelt request for help. You also may hit her on a day when she is tired of telling people that Mr. Highstuff is in yet another meeting. Rule #11: It is likely she is lying to you. Did I already mention that? Rule #12: She goes to lunch. Who covers for her? Most likely lunch is covered by someone who doesn't really want to be answering the phone. That may be a very good time to call. Rule #13: She may not be a receptionist. She may be a switchboard operator. Rule #14: She'll tell someone that you call repeatedly. Rule #15: As we have already heard, she's been trained to spot you as a recruiter before the phone even rings. Rule #16: On the other hand, she ALWAYS knows more than anyone realizes. She sees The Fax, puts through The Call, makes The Photocopy, etc. Rule #17: She knows who is important and who isn't important regardless of how important they think they are. That includes you. Rule #18: There is always a slim chance she will take pity on you once or twice, but if she thinks for one nano-second that you think she's stupid, you're done. Everyone at work tells her she's got the most important job in the whole company and yet she knows she makes the least amount of money. Add to it and you will feel her displeasure.
Anything I've missed? I'm sure there is something. I doubt I have told you anything new, but it is a good habit to keep these things in mind.
Especially Rule #7.
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This is an interesting topic. I am a corporate recruiter for a mid-sized engineering firm. We've had a couple of situations come up in the past that get into this issue. Once a headhunter firm had people calling in telling our employees that there were going to be massive layoffs (no shred of truth at all); another cussed out a receptionist when she screened the nature of their call. We've had another company take our postings (without our knowledge - and without having a contract with us) and list them in their booth at a technical conference (candidates who contacted us had the distinct impression the company was working on our behalf - and we had never heard of them before this). To me these things may or may not be illegal, but I feel they are unethical.
I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that this is the norm - at least not with the agencies I deal with, but rather they are agencies giving all headhunters/agencies a bad image.
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Jeff-
Nice post that bolsters what others have said. But to paraphrase what I wrote, "If it feels illegal it probably is." What gets people into trouble - and this is in all the case law - is when recruiters push aside employment contracts, NDAs, etc. when recruiting. Not asking a candidate if they have an employment agreement is just folly. Asking for contracts and getting them to your attorney to see if it's iron clad is a reasonable thing for recruiters to do.
As for company directories, they are company property; getting a company evidence proving it was obtained and used illegally isn't the easiest thing to do (say unlike Sears back in 1997 when email trails demonstrated that they wanted to systematically decimate Montgomery Ward).
In recruiting, it pays to heed the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump who said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
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"Okay, so is having TWO measures [is] the dishonest part? Either use one or the other? Weights, measures...hmmm... Accurate...what is "accurate"?
Life was a bit more uncomplicated back in Edensville; although there was a snake, I don't think there was an attorney. I suspect honesty was taken as a virture...
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Is sourcing illegal. It all depends on how it is done. I am not a lawyer but I do own one of the largest Name Generation companies in the US and I can say I've had quite a few conversations with our attorney's on this subject.
On the phone; it is illegal to misrepresent yourself as someone from a state, local or federal government employee. The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) states that this falls under the category of Fraud. BUT for fraud to be committed money or some other form of compensation must exchange between the person performing the ruse and the rusee. HOWEVER, it could be argued, though I doubt successfully, that an employee constitutes Human Capital at the target company and is therefore a "form" of compensation. Because most Name Generator's are rusing not for their own hiring but for a third party client there is a level of separation so it would be difficult to argue that point. And I say difficult not impossible.
Via Fax, Email US Mail; IT IS completely illegal to receive or attempt to receive company confidential information in electronic means or in hard copy. This is theft and it does not matter if the person sending it to you knows what you plan on doing with it. AND depending on how much you are selling the list for possibly Larceny or Grand Larceny mostly depending on the dollar amount attached to the list.
I have not gotten a clear answer about this scenario. If an employee leaves a company and takes a copy of the directory with him and then sells it to a Directory reseller (of which there are many) and he then resells it by making a photocopy or by retyping it in xcel. Is this illegal? Laws vary from state to state but most liely it would still be illegal.
AGAIN I am NOT an attorney and I am not offering any legal advice. Anything I worte should be considered completely inaccurate until you verify with you own counsel.
As for poaching is very difficult to prove since you are doing it for a third party. And honestly this is one of the things that give "US" a bad name. I've heard several Name Generator's say that it is 100 times harder to ruse now as compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Well you have the hacks out there that pillage and rape small to mid-sized companies to thank for it. And they burn bridges while doing it by calling secretaries back and saying "gotcha". Well not only did they just ruin that secretary but she will now become a trainer for all incoming secretaries on how to detect a recruiter. Not to mention it's completely unprofessional.
Jeff Weidner HTC
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Carl-
I'm game...
How about Deuteronomy 25:13-16?
13 Do not have two differing weights in your bag-one heavy, one light. 14 Do not have two differing measures in your house-one large, one small. 15 You must have accurate and honest weights and measures, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. 16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
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With my 20 some odd years in the staffing industry, this question (concern) has always been present. Generally I do not use deception as a means of sourcing candidates. I am upfront with who I work for and why I am calling them. Unfortunately, I am not perfect and I still struggle with this at times.
For me, it literally renches my gut when a company president or my manager tells me to resort to deception to get more candidates or to close a candidate. I know if I was stronger in my belief of what I am worth and that I could leave one job and find another more ethical focused recruiting job the next week then in cases where the expectations are to use deceptive practices to recruit, I would stand my ground and tell my employer goodbye.
But, being the non-confrontational person I am, and knowing that recruiting jobs at my level are still few and far between, I instead just continue on recruiting with how I am most comfortable and let the results speak for themselves. In my employment history, I have generally been able to meet and exceed my goals without having to stoop to overtly deceptive practices. You noticed that I said overtly?? Because there is still some gray areas that I struggle with.
Although no longer a devout religious practitioner, I still carry some deep beliefs about right and wrong as I was taught as a youth growing up in a Lutheran environment and then later in life converting to a more spiritual based AG doctrine. One of these beliefs is that there is only one master of deception in the world and that following this "thing's" practice of deception to succeed in life, could have really long lasting and burning results.
As we just read how the "Art of War" could apply to recruiting, it would be interesting to see how some of the Biblical principals could also be applied to our industry. Anyone game for tackling that?!?
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Maureen What a great discussion! I found the following quote interesting ?I did have a "gentleman's promise" with a competitor to not solicit people from our competitor.? Talk about illegal. They are restricting the freedom of employees to freely move to other jobs.?
I understood the "gentleman's agreement" to be that the recruiters would not actively recruit or solicit from each other's company. There is nothing in this statement that restricts employees to move to other jobs.
I don't agree that things are different in a corporate environment then a TPR or agency setting. Techniques might be different, but if anything, working for an agency or TPR tends to be more restrictive in that you can't (or should I say I won't)recruit someone who is working for a client as an employee.
I would hate to get on a high horse and say that TPR tend to "misrepresent" themselves when calling into companies. How many corporate (and other) recruiters "misrepresent" when they string a candidate along, instead of telling them that they are not even being considered for a position.
As you said, it depends on your comfort level. Just my thoughts,
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