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What's on my mind.

The silent majority follow this blog post

ERE.net is home to a large professional community - today there are over 50,000 members of the ERE Network, and they come to the site for the amazing professional education and networking opportunities that the community and ERE staff have developed over the years.

Too often, what they find are personal disputes and squabbles, and it is usually a small group of people at the center.  These beefs take up huge amounts of time and energy for those involved, and sometimes the personal history and recriminations go back for years.

The arguments between our members are none of my business, as long as they take place in private or on other web sites.  They become my business when those personal arguments disrupt the conversations and flow of useful professional information to the community on ERE.net.

The thing is, the other 49,990 members of the network don't care about these personal disputes.  At best, they find them uninteresting.  At worst, they regard them as annoyances that distract from the true reason that they visit ERE - to learn about the profession of recruiting.   Put another way, the silent majority wants to talk about substance, not get sucked into a few members' personality conflicts.

Last week - for the second time in ERE's nearly nine-year history - I made the decision to ban one of our active members from our site because she demonstrated an ongoing pattern of disrupting conversation and engaging in personal disputes on the public discussion boards on ERE.net.

To date, I've avoided posting about this decision because I didn't want to needlessly embarrass anyone (which is also why I am not using her name in this post).  However, my lack of explanation and transparency in decision-making has resulted in a number of people publicly speculating about what happened, and that is further disrupting the experience of the silent majority on the ERE site -- the exact opposite of the intended effect.

So, for those that have been asking:

  • The decision to ban her from the site was one that we did not take lightly.  It came after no less than three members of the ERE staff -- including myself -- gave pointed warnings about the disruptions that she was causing.  In turn, these warnings were made after we received multiple complaints from a broad group of ERE members.

  • This decision was not made because we were trying to enforce or censor any particular point of view - I firmly believe that ERE needs to be a place where ideas can be discussed freely.  I believe just as strongly that those debates need to not reach the level of personal grievances -- the online equivalent of shouting down the other side.

I appreciate that some ERE members will disagree with this decision, and that they find this individual's contributions to our dialogue to be useful additions.  I understand that point of view, and I am certain that the individual in question will continue to be a vocal member of the online recruiting community. She will just do so on other websites with more permissive policies. I encourage you to continue your dialogue with her on those sites.

I realize that this is a hot-button issue that many on ERE feel strongly about, and that there will be some ERE members who will want to have a dialogue about or express their displeasure with my decision.  The place for that is here on my blog -- not the discussion groups. This largely personal issue affecting a small number of ERE members should not be allowed to disrupt the experience of the silent majority.

44 comments

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  • 1 point 22 months ago

    Hi David:

    What a tough job you have. Running the top recruiters exchange in the country. One every one of us is proud to be a member of. Doing what you think in your head and your heart is in the best interests of the majority of the members. I know I am getting in late on this one but that approach is not uncommon for me. Listen...observe...ask...learn...then speak. I am sure most who have participated in and have been reading this discussion had hoped it would finally end. I have a feeling it is not anywhere near over. I heard about the ban almost as soon as it occurred. Yes, I was surprised but not shocked. More than anything I wondered why others were not also banned at the same time. As one who ?lurks? but does not often participate in the recruiter discussion groups (ERE and others), I have read many exchanges between Karen and a small but vocal group of other members. What I noticed was that although she was often opinionated, aggressive, and prolific in her posts, these other members were as well, seemingly no more so than her. Frankly, although I do consider her my friend and associate, we do not agree on everything. My definition of recruiter ethics is far broader than hers, but that does not cause us to be enemies, or even to argue. We are able to respect one another?s opinions and have healthy, professional-level discussions about them from time to time. No, I don?t think this whole thing has anything to do with her opinions, or even her style.

    As I have been patient as I have taken this all in, I have noticed a bit of a pattern. First she is banned from ERE, then her visit to SourceCon is cancelled. Now more recently her blog, her only avenue of defending herself, has been suspended. It is looking more and more like some type of conspiracy against this person. No, of course I would never think that you would ever be involved in such a thing but I am now wondering if you were somehow unwittingly drawn into one.

    You made a decision and have made it clear to everyone it is final. It looks like the vast majority of posters to this discussion do not agree with your decision but I don?t think anyone in this group has the ability to second-guess you. You are privy to information the rest of us are not. If I were sitting in your seat, who knows, I may have banned Karen as well but I would think that if I did there would have been at least two others shown the door as well.

    Karen had nothing to gain by her participation in these groups. She had nothing to sell, unlike others who utilize these groups for nothing more than free self-promotion, evidently with your blessing, or at least your knowledge. She took her own time to start at least four ERE discussion groups, and has been very active in a couple of Yahoo groups as well. It was her passion for this business, not dollar signs, that precipitated her involvement in something she believed in, a trait any group should cherish.

    Thanks for listening.

    Mark

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I don't mind when people want to debate points, present multiple sides to an argument, play devil's advocate.... etc. It's healthy and provokes thought - new and better ideas are born from this process.

    However one particular person consistently used the spirit of healthy debate as an excuse to antagonize and inject (often irrelevant) opinions into nearly every thread. I found many of that individual's contributions detracted from - not added to - these threads, and often changed them from debates about a topic into personal arguments.

    I've seen topics I might have posted in, but by the time I'd read them, they'd already been hijacked and turned into a train wreck. I've seen topics that were truly interesting to me and I looked forward to watching them play out until they turned into massive arguments and childish displays of self-validation.

    Joshua, while you and I clearly have very differing opinions on at least one particular subject, I do understand your frustration - given your point of view.

    But I think David has already been more transparent then he frankly has to be, and sharing the information he has could be viewed as more of a courtesy than a duty. Just because this is a community doesn't make the management of it a democracy.

    To David, I just say thanks.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    David had the biggest stick. He wins.

    They were his marbles and if he wants to tell someone they can't play anymore cuz he wants to pacify the bigger bullies, so be it.

    Play on.

    By the way, well said JL. I hope you don't get kicked off.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    David had the biggest stick. He wins.

    They were his marbles and if he wants to tell someone they can't play anymore cuz he wants to pacify the bigger bullies, so be it.

    Play on.

    By the way, well said JL. I hope you don't get kicked off.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Amazing that you see this as an "overall assessment of Karen's character". You must know her very little if you feel this sums up her character. Everything that I said was a PERSONAL opinion and based on PERSONAL experience with her...as I mentioned if you read thoroughly. I did not say anything that assumed anything nor did I say anything about her "PERSONAL" character. I also stated that I have spoken to several people who made various statements supporting the fact that they are relieved that they feel now they can be more active on the site without being subjected to an ethical debate. This is a "FACT" - something you mentioned earlier as being "important" to consider.

    WHERE is the defacement of character? I said nothing about her that was not true. I also said that she had valid points and often good information. But it is not needed or welcomed as many agree - on postings/questions that have nothing to do with ethics or legal issues.

    You can sit on the high fence all you like and try to make something out of nothing...there is NOTHING to defend in this case.

    I voiced "MY OPINION" and relayed what had been shared with me by others. I've said nothing "attacking her PERSONAL character".

    As for no attacks on a person or organization...the continuous beating of the preverbial dead horse by yourself and anyone else who wants to keep whining about this "situation" - is attacking ERE and David Monaster and his decision making skills...for what he thought was the best choice to make regarding this situation.

    I find it laughable that you would throw up breaking rule #6??? Which part did you find "unlawful, harassing, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harm-ful, vulgar, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, racially offensive, inaccurate..."

    My comment was an OPINION which I am free to have and to share and EVERYTHING that I said was absolutely TRUE. I doubt that Karen would even disagree with the fact that she loved playing the devil's advocate. She loved jumping in on conversations to throw ideas out there about ethics and legal ramifications.

    Nothing I said is unkind or untrue. It's simply FACT.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Opinions are free and everyone has them. Luckily we are all entitled to them and can ignore those we don't agree with. So done.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    and Amen. This is ridiculous.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Honestly...it's no one's business who sent private emails to and fro - and to be specific - there is NO WAY to determine that either party has presented the TRUTH with regards to the actual email as it can be altered to reflect anything you wish.

    Karen was banned because she is has a "HISTORY" of arguing with the lamp post. She is not graceful when disagreed with. Further, she acts even more inappropriately (in my opinion) as to CALL you to discuss the situation and tie you up on the phone for so long that the cows actually came home.

    There have been multiple complaints from various people (I have almost the largest network of anyone on ERE) so I can tell that truthfully...I've talked with dozens of people who feel that her absence is a BLESSING. There are DOZENS of people who have remarked that they would have been interested in either posting a question or responding to a question, but Karen's constant playing the devil's advocate and constantly wanting to push the envelope has kept them from doing so.

    Folks have said that they feel 'intimated' by her holier than thou rantings on ethics...when they aren't talking about ethics...they aren't asking about ethics...and what they are posting on doesn't represent anything ethical...yet Karen ALWAYS has to put her 2 cents in.

    ERE just finally gave her her change and bid her farewell. And frankly I'm tired of the uproar over it. If you are so incensed and angry over what you feel is unfair - then revoke your membership. Go be a part of the NEVER ENDING so called "ethics support" group.

    I take offense personally as do DOZENS of ERE members who try innocently to say something or question on ERE only to have ethics brought up AGAIN AND AGAIN.

    I work ETHICALLY. I believe FIRMLY in ETHICS. My husband has been in law enforcement for 20 years...and I have a STRONG spiritual grounding which in and of itself helps ensure my ethical behavior.

    I don't need a "Devil's Advocate" - I don't need or want someone to jump in with their ethical bantor every time I post something.

    She did indeed have valid points about ethics and recruiting - but there is a place and time for all of that conversation. In my opinion she bullied others with her holier than thou rantings.

    I for one am glad that Karen is not on this site any longer and it has nothing to do with her as a "person", it has nothing to do with money or competition or anything other than the fact that I do not like "know-it-alls" - nor do most people.

    I do not like someone constantly waiting for an argument - life is hard enough...there is enough strife...I'd like a place that I can read INFORMATIVE and RELEVANT information about recruiting and sourcing without a CONSTANT argument being challenged.

    If you are SO concerned about Karen's treatment, and miss her ethical bantor so painfully on this site, then go start an ETHICAL KAREN fan club...complete with your own website where she can constantly slap your hands over ethical debates.

    I really think she has missed her calling...she needs to go back to school and become a REAL lawyer and specialize in Work Ethics. It appears to be where her passion is...but there is no room for it here...the horse is dead...stop beating the damn thing.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    ....because I've already told you the reasons behind the decision, and they have nothing to do with two words in a email which I did not send.

    As I've already stated, Karen was the one who forwarded me the email. Since you said that you contacted Karen today, I find it odd that you don't just ask her who sent it to her - its not my place to air details on a pretty embarrassing private email to which I was not a party.

    Your dates are correct, but you are simply incorrect about the email - the thread of conversation in the email itself began with the posting from Sourcers Unleashed. I don't know if you received the entire thread from your "anonymous source" or just the single email that you posted, but I urge you to get the full chain from your mysterious friend if you don't have the full thread already.

    I left you a voicemail earlier today, which you did not return. Are you really interested in getting answers to these questions, or are you just trying to publicly ask them in such a way that it looks like Karen was treated unfairly?

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Josh - Karen forwarded me that email as well. It was not sent by me or any other ERE employee, as I am sure that Karen will confirm if you ask her.

    In fact, if your "anonymous tipster" sent you the entire conversation thread of that email, you would see that it was actually referring to an argument that occurred on the Sourcers Unleashed group on Yahoo at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SUAngst/message/26

    The email was not about ERE, was not sent by an ERE employee, and the reference to "LAST comment" appears to have been about the Forum on which that argument took place - Sourcers Unleashed.

    If you are interested in learning more about Karen's private communications I suggest that you ask her directly - as you note, she is very easily reached via her blog.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    John - I've presented the whole story. I've done my best to directly and forthrightly answer the questions presented in the comments to this post.

    If you have additional questions, you can give me a call at (212) 671-1181 x801 or post them here.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    It is really unfortunately to see Karen banned from ERE. From what I read, saw and observed, I don't feel this judgement by the Great David is fair and balanced.

    As David indicated in mail to Karen, "I want to emphasize that I am not interested in resolving your personal disputes or serving as a mediator." Really, who cares? I have no interest to that too, but admittedly and guiltly I do occasionally read this kind of threads for fun. :) I always can pick what ever I want to read, that's the beauty of reading freedom.

    The loss of Karen is not only the loss of good content contributor, but also the loss of ERE's reputation as an objective and opinionated (sometimes heated discussed) community. This action brought in more negative PR than positive one.

    David, please give Karen a chance to re-enter this community where she has great interest and respect.

    That's what I feel silent majority really wants. ================================================

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    You all have way too much time on your hands. I'm a sporadic participant on ERE because I'm too busy RECRUITING.

    First, while Karen and I have not always agreed on topics, I respect her experience and opinion. We have, at times, agreed to disagree.

    Second, if an individual cannot support a posted statement then that individual opens himself/herself up for criticism and should thus be prepared for an onslught of commentary. Negative comments do not equal attacks unless they are personal in which case the moderator/group leader should pull the individuals offline and have a discussion. Was this done for all parties?

    Third, I found it interesting that Maureen was the first person to comment not more than 20 minutes after the initial posting. I have heard that Maureen and Steve are in business together and Steve and David are good friends. These relationships strike me as an interesting twist to this tale.

    Lastly, by removing Karen from the site, you have eseentlially tried to censor her. As has been said before, "You can never keep a good woman down": http://www.karenmattonen.blogspot.com/

    Again, while Karen and I do at times have heated disagreements, I feel that ERE has, without full and specific disclosure of the situation, removed a popular, though no less controversial, participant on the site. It is the very nature of heated debate that sparks innovation this industry so badly needs.

    So, David's action and nebulous explanation, just doesn't quite ring true to me.

    Just my two cents....

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    check it out ;)

    http://jimstroud.com/2007/07/24/karen-mattonen-is-now-blogging-yay/

    ~jer

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Thanks David for answering my question. I appreciate it. I will still use ERE as I find it a valuable tool, but I am definitley hesitant to post now. I was just trying to understand what the guidelines were as to how many complaints you can receive before being banned.

    Thanks again! Kim

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    David, Thanks for posting this. I think it is important that this be addressed publicly - although I don't agree with your decision of course. (But you knew that already.)

    I just hope tat if the other two parties were warned as Karen was that they either take things down a notch, or else are banned. They are both smart people, and know better, so hopefully they will take the warnings seriously. But if they don't, and things continue as they have been (sans Karen of course) I think it will start driving more people away from ERE. And THAT would be a shame. I still believe that if one was banned they all should have been - but you have already stated your reasons, etc., so I am not trying to debate it with you.

    I too am very reluctant to refer other recruiters to ERE lately. Hopefully things will calm down and that will change.

    I think it would be a shame if Karen cannot be allowed back in sometime in the future. Hopefully after a few months things will calm down and objectivity and reason will shed some light on the subject. Of course we have to leave that in the hands of ERE, so this will be my last post about the subject.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    David, Thanks for posting this. I think it is important that this be addressed publicly - although I don't agree with your decision of course. (But you knew that already.)

    I just hope tat if the other two parties were warned as Karen was that they either take things down a notch, or else are banned. They are both smart people, and know better, so hopefully they will take the warnings seriously. But if they don't, and things continue as they have been (sans Karen of course) I think it will start driving more people away from ERE. And THAT would be a shame. I still believe that if one was banned they all should have been - but you have already stated your reasons, etc., so I am not trying to debate it with you.

    I too am very reluctant to refer other recruiters to ERE lately. Hopefully things will calm down and that will change.

    I think it would be a shame if Karen cannot be allowed back in sometime in the future. Hopefully after a few months things will calm down and objectivity and reason will shed some light on the subject. Of course we have to leave that in the hands of ERE, so this will be my last post about the subject.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Jeff ? It was a pleasure speaking with you last week as well. I agree that Margo perfectly voiced the frustrations of the ?silent majority? on ERE.net ? most people simply have no interest in this personal drama, which is why it won?t be allowed on the discussion forums any longer.

    Josh - I?m not sure what e-mails you are referring to in your comment, but I will state it again ? I have nothing to do with the Sourcecon event, and neither ERE Media nor I have any financial interest in its success or failure.

    Kim ? I will respectfully disagree with you about the best thing about ERE. In my humble opinion, the value of ERE is not that you can pick and choose which messages you read ? you can find that anywhere, thanks to your delete button. The value in ERE?s discussions comes from our community?s focus on issues of substance within the profession, and these repeated personal conflicts are destroying that focus and value.

    I don?t have a ?personal level? with the individual in question. She was a frequent user of the ERE site, and to the extent that she was a productive member of the community, we had a business relationship. To the extent that her frequent personal arguments disrupted the network and scared away other members of the community, that was strictly business as well.

    We don?t get a single complaint about a typical ERE member and their participation on our services. Not one.

    On the other hand, this person has received dozens of complaints over the last couple of years. I don?t have a hard number (believe it or not, the ERE staff has better uses of their time than tallying complaints about a single member on the network), but I would estimate that it is somewhere between fifty and a hundred. Common sense would dictate that for every one of those emails on this subject, there were many others people who felt similarly but did not take the time to write ? they simply left ERE altogether.

    ERE?s posting guidelines are available for all to see at http://www.ere.net/forum/guidelines.asp . In particular, this member repeatedly violated rule #6 ? No attacks on a particular person or organization. After receiving many complaints, and after a particularly nasty, personal and public dispute in April of this year, we warned this person repeatedly about her actions. When this warning was not heeded, we took action.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Thank you for both writing this and for the call to talk with me about it.

    Margo, said it best--to paraphrase, I would see these endless strings and delete them.

    For someone trying to promote a site as a vehicle as a vehicle for any industry and who puts in time, effort and care into its success, as someone who has sweat bullets at times, I'm sure, reading that message, I hope, helps you feel even more comfort in your decision.

    As you know, I like Karen and respect her views on many things, yet, as I was taught when I was doing psychoanalytic training, the therapist needs to charge a good fee in order to be able to be there for the patient.

    Well, unless ERE creates an environment where people want to come and not just hit delete repeatedly, it will disappear and we will all suffer.

    And sitting in the chair you do, you MUST make decisions like this, even when unpopular.

    Jeff Altman The Big Game Hunter

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    HI David,

    Maybe I didn't see your response, so I apologize up front if you did respond directly to the question.....

    If you did not I find it interesting you never addressed my question nor Michael querrity (whos question was similiar)..... did you do this purposely because the decision was made on "personal level" VS a "business level"?

    Again, I think it is important for the ENTIRE community to know how you can get you banned from ERE...so I will ask again for both Michael and myself and rest of the members of ERE the same question I asked yesterday....

    What I would like to know is a how many complaints is considered multiple you stated there were"multiple complaints from a broad group of ERE members." Is this 10, 20, 500, 1000, 5,000, 10,000, 20,000?? As you stated previously "today there are over 50,000 members of the ERE Network" Even if you received 1,000 complaints that compliant ratio is very slim for over 50,000 members. I really would like to know how many complaints you recieved on this topic.

    I think that everyone should have a voice. The best thing about ERE is you don't have to chose to read every post, if you don't like how they are responding....Make a choice and don't read it. As simple as that. Not every one is going to agree, so I just need to be aware if I post something and receive complaints, how many is too many complaints to be banned.......

    Thanks David! I look forward to your response.

    Kim Allan

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Josh - I'm glad that you think ERE is such a valuable resource, and your help in flagging inappropriate posts will be greatly appreciated by Brendan (ERE's Moderator) and me.

    Dennis - All parties to this particular dispute received a warning. One of those parties had already been warned repeatedly, and it was clear to me that further warnings would be ineffective.

    Keith - As I posted previously, I have no connection to SourceCon, and no knowledge of their agenda beyond what I have read on their site and the comments on this blog.

    Adrienne - I am sorry that you've stopped recommending the site to your peers. I hope that we can bring the level of discourse back up so you can feel good about spreading the word again!

    Keith, Pam & Adrienne - ERE has a "flag" feature on every post in the discussion groups so you can bring them to the attention of our staff moderator. I encourage you (and everyone else) to use it when you see objectionable or excessively promotional content in the future. We share the same goal - making the site a more useful tool for recruiters.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    OK. I generally do not get involved in this type of nonsense. But since people are opening the flood gates of the "truth" let me add mine. I don't have any friends or alliances on this site so let the chips fall where they may. If I get banned, I get banned.

    I think most of you on here that engage in defamation and arguing back and forth need to be ashamed of yourselves. I came to ERE a few years ago to mingle amongst my peers. A haven where I can share recruiting topics with each other. I swear when I get my notification for my digests for some of the groups, I get sick. It's usually some nonsense going on. I hit delete before reading. I get tired of the 3 page advertisements on the sig lines. For a site where there isn't supposed to be blatant advertising, there sure is a whole lot of that going on. But nobody gets called on it. And, in my OPINION, there is way too much minding other people's business and a lot of kindergarten-like finger pointing, tongue wagging and trash talking. I for one am sick of it. If I wanted to experience this I'd go to one of the social message boards.

    This whole banning situation is beyond ridiculous because it should be all offenders who should have been banned. You can't just pick and choose based on friendships who needs to be banned. What's good for the goose....you know the rest. But hey, it's your business so do what you have to do.

    Are you all grown ups? Better question, how do you get any work done?

    I've enjoyed ERE for the most part over the years. But I am disappointed as to how this place has devolved into name calling and infantile behavior in the forums. I USED to point other recruiters to ERE but in recent months, I have chosen not to.

    Not afraid to list my name...

    Adrienne Graham Atlanta, GA

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Keith,

    You raise an excellent point regarding volume of posting. Am not sure I understand why there was an issue with the number of posts Karen put up and yet no issue with others who post as much if not more, and whose posts are often more self-promo than anything else. It just seems like there are different rules for different people and that the end result is that the quality of ERE's discussions have been diminished.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I am wondering who determines that "vast majority" is not interested in those heated discussions. I consider myself a member of this "vast majority", someone who enjoys reading the ERE articles, blogs and discussions, but (sadly) doesn't contribute much himself. I enjoy Karen's discussions, and never got annoyed by any of the comments. If I would have been, I would have scrolled further down(or up)...very simple... The only reason that comes to my mind for banning someone, would be extensive spam(marketing), swearwords or people insulting others. This was not the case as far as I know. This "ban" really hurt EREs reputation, at least for me.

    Michael Gerrity

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Dave,

    Fair nuff and "nuff said' methinks. Time to move on...I have work to do...se ya on ERE all! ;-)

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I didn't realize that posting on the regular board so that others could see how I felt about a subject was being disallowed. So I posted my comments and they were removed. I would have preferred they at least be moved to this forum. Ok I was forewarned if I had read the rest of the post. But I've seen some silly discussions on this site and some out and out blatant advertisements and personal communications and no one seemed to have a problem. No one was banned. Something seems wrong to me when a person who has consistently made positive contributions to the discussion groups is "expelled" and then the justification posted on a separate blog which will be seen by fewer than the regular discussion board. I don't really know the people involved other than an occasional debate here or there. But it seems wrong to me. So my question is if there was a problem with a group of individuals, why was one person kicked of ere.net? Why was the discussion moved? Why do we only get one side of a story? When I follow the thread, there seems to be plenty of blame to go around for what you may term "disruptive behavior" since the banned person was communicating with someone else. I've seen a lot of cover ups in my time and this just smacks of one and I don't know the reason for favoring one of the parties over the other.

    What would be fairer? If you're warning someone, all parties to the "disruption" should be warned. If you're expelling someone, all parties should be expelled. I would have likely suspended all of the parties involved for a period of time and suggested they reconsider their use of the network for this sort of thing.

    Dennis Stuempfle Palatine Technology Services

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    All I can think when I see these endless strings; aren't you all busy with your actual BUSINESS??? How do you have the time??!! I'm going to have to hit 'delete' alot more on the digests I get, I guess, 'cause I'm plenty busy!

    Margo Morgenlander

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Thanks to everyone who took the time to weigh in on this subject. As I said in my post, I am aware that it is a hot-button issue, and that there is a vocal minority who feels strongly that this decision was an error.

    I want to reiterate that the decision that I made is final, and that I am doing it because I believe that it is in the best interests of the greater community on ERE - the community has zero interest in hearing the same heated personal arguments over and over again.

    I will do my best to address the questions and comments here:

    Josh - I appreciate your theory on why these arguments are happening, and I am aware that some of those involved have consulting businesses that they are boosting or protecting. I am not concerned with those businesses other than to wish all involved well with them. My sole concern, as it relates to discussions on the ERE site, is with keeping the quality of dialogue high, and take the steps necessary to ensure that the noise does not drown out the signal.

    Ethics is an important topic of conversation in any environment, and in an industry like ours, with a poor reputation for ethics and honesty, it is even more important to have an ongoing dialogue. It is important to allow people to have conversations about other topics though, and when conversations on multiple topics in forums not dedicated to discussing ethics are repeatedly turned into ethics battlegrounds, it drowns out those other conversations.

    The banner ads that you refer to are what allow us to maintain ERE as a free service. Running the ERE web site takes a lot of money, including our staff, development and server costs, and our sponsors provide the fuel that keeps it all running.

    I am not sure what you are referring to with text advertising, since ERE does not currently sell that on the web site proper. If you (or anyone else) feels that an individual post is too salesy - or if it is outright spam - then I urge you to use the flag feature on each and every post in the discussion groups to notify the ERE staff.

    Dennis - I could not agree more about the "me too" posts. as a alternative, I recommend that the person who wants to share a file use a service like senduit.com and let people download the files on their own. I have instructed Brendan, ERE's moderator, to flag this type of post and recommend that the poster find another way to share the file.

    William - This had nothing to do with advertisers. Karen (since you used her name, it would now be silly or me to try to maintain anonymity) was not an advertiser, nor did any advertisers request her removal. If they had, we would have denied the request. This is about maintaining the usefulness of the community, not ad dollars.

    Heidi & Carl - There are many other forums in which she is active, and I have no doubt that her voice will continue to be heard.

    Wade & Pam - You're right - it take two (or more) to tango. In this case, this individual had been repeatedly warned about exactly this behavior, and this was simply the final straw. The other individuals involved have now been been similarly warned.

    Scott - You're correct - part of the lifecycle of online discussion is that things get to a certain size and then devolve in to flame wars. This action was taken to prevent a small group of participants from continuing to do the same here.

    Fred - As you discovered, you are free to leave the community at any time. I'm sorry that you felt the need to do so.

    Sunil - I can't respond on behalf of the people who you refer to because I don't know who they are, nor would I presume to speak for anyone other than myself. I can tell you that nobody is authorized to be "spokespersons" for ERE except for myself and other ERE employees, not volunteer moderators and Bloggers. With the exception of ERE employees, nobody has any more or less of a link to ERE than you do as a member, no matter how they may choose to represent themselves to you.

    I have nothing to do with SourceCon, and was not aware of any of their speaker choices beyond what is on their site until you wrote your comment.

    Pam - This post was moved here because this subject has nothing to do with "recruiting leadership", which is where it was originally posted. I will emphasize again - the vast majority of ERE readers have no interest in these disputes. My goal is to spare them the inevitable "he said/she said" and to let them do what they are really here for - learning about recruiting.

    Bill - I would appreciate it if you would not make comments of a personal nature towards anyone on my blog. That said, we have actually already tried asking the person in question to limit her volume - it was one of three requests that we made of her in April of this year in order to avid having to take the step of removing her from the community. The request was unsuccessful, which is why we have reluctantly had to take this step.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I believe the "advertising" Joshua makes reference to isn't paid advertising, but those folks who in my opinion take posting as an opportunity for Free Advertising.

    My confusion remains, as to why ERE "dismembers" someone for stating strong opinions in defense, while allowing other members to continually and blatantly mis-utilize the forum as a means for self-promotion. Have other members complained about this?

    I can't believe there are only a couple of us who find it beyond annoying when members appear to be taking extreme advantage of posting an ERE group message with the primary purpose to advertise themselves and their businesses, so much so that I've regretted deleting certain daily digests without reading their entirety, because it's so cumbersome to keep seeing self-promoting "free ads" go on and on and on... gb

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    David:

    Dear Karen, eccentric Karen, Karen, who spends way too much time, energy and emotion on this board; who, incidentally, I like very much, can be, and often is, a complete pain in the ass.

    Regrettably, you made as good a call as you could.

    This issue though. Should not be taken so seriously. Karen?s cyber-enemies are as flakey as she is, as is anyone who posts more often than I do. It?s far too easy to get sucked into these kindergarten politics. Rise above it.

    We are in a sorry state when these are the issues we must engage.

    However, as Karen?s abrasiveness is probably more a question of volume than of content, let me suggest an alternative: That after a brief suspension, you allow her back but simply limit the number of posts she can make. Consider that she does have a good thing to say from time to time, is amusing,in a strange sort of way and a little controversy is no bad thing for a product like this.

    Limiting the number of posts (probably length of post too) would assure that she chose her battles carefully and made her case succinctly and hopefully, with better punctuation.

    Should we ban every one who says a foolish thing (or two)? I'd be mighty lonely in that case.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Anthony,

    With all due respect, I think the reason the discussion was moved here was simply so that fewer people would be aware of how unfairly ERE has handled this situation. They don't exactly want to draw attention or generate negative PR.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Sunil,

    I did not bait you but rather responded to your baiting of another.

    I DO NOT HAVE CLOSE LINKS TO ERE.

    I had my post removed because I suggested that you had a hidden agenda. You call it baiting. What's the difference?

    I think it is clear why ERE moved this subject to here rather than clogging up the main discussion board.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I found a way to delete my own account... don't bother responding... oh wait ... you are not responding to anyone here anyway so no problem...

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    What really bothers me about the banning of this individual is that as someone else pointed out, it takes more than one person to engage in a battle.

    The only question I have for Dave is if you have thoroughly reviewed the entire threads in question, or if you are possibly swayed by your friendship with those who provoked this person into defending herself? I watched these conversations unfold and what I found most disturbing frankly was that ERE blog where this individual was attacked most specifically and clearly so it was beyond obvious who they were referring to, she was attacked for NOT responding to the Call Girl Vicky video. Which was frankly, ridiculous to attack someone for NOT saying anything! Because she did not criticize the lack of ethics portrayed in that video, she came under attack and was then punished for simply defending herself.

    So, my question remains, why was she the only one punished? How can you condone the behavior of the others who instigated and provoked her into simply defending herself?

    It doesn't add up...unless what really is going on is that this is a personal decision, NOT a business one.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Going by the numbers of the largest group at ERE I reckoned it to have max 20,000 members.It is indeed a pleasant surprise that there about 50,000.Obviously the result of untiring efforts by you and your team.My congratulations.

    That personal disputes and squabbles have been going on for years in the groups at ERE as you have observed is a matter of utmost concern is something that I fully agree with you.

    Joshua L started a debate regarding this 'banned person' in a group which has 7000+ members and it has been moved to this blog which has far lesser visibility and from where no daily digest goes out.After hundreds of such debates this debate has been singled out.

    In my only blog post ever I had said that the decision regarding this person was harsh.I also stated that I had no axe to grind and had taken on this person in another group at Yahoo in one of the discussions.

    I get a letters from the two members of the other side(one blogger and another moderator but both partners)They seem to be knowing everything about what's happening and have inside information about decisions being made by ERE.This moderator has the audacity to threaten me not to post any criticism about her ir regard to what's happening to the banned member at her group as well.They seem to be acting like spokepersons for ERE.

    Is it true that this banned person was asked not to respond to any attack.I do not think that even a convicted murderer out on parole etc can be aked not to defend himself/herself against attack.I hope it is not true and request you to deny it.

    Furthermore it is evident from the posts at the blog that this person was being baited by both these persons.What was in the posts by her that warranted such a harsh action.What about their posts.

    Moreover all this happened at a blog and not one of the regular groups at ERE.

    Yes,She also got kicked out of Source con.All things happening in a very synchronised manner.

    In one the groups moderated by this blogger's partner where I asked her to back the assumptions made I was baited by another person having close links with ERE making allegations of me having hidden agenda etc etc.Good that one of his post was removed.

    Kindly share all the informatiom regarding warnings etc.

    It is necessary that not only should justice be done but it should also seem to be done.

    I think that you have been prevailed upon by misinformation etc.

    I hope things are amicably settled and this decision is reviewed.

    Sunil

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Scott Jennings makes a great point... ERE is a business... I have better things to do (like running my own business)

    Banning this person was BUSINESS wasn't it?

    I would like to ban myself from ERE please :) How do I do it?

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    If you have any wider experience with a discussion board or chat group, then you probably have decided to leave one of those boards/groups due to unchecked commentary that turns into flaming personal diatribes. If you haven't had this experience, then you are lucky and rare. ERE is trying to run a business...this is not a democracy. I applaud their efforts to be proactive about issues that threaten the viability of their service to their audience. ENOUGH ALREADY! If you feel you have to respond to every posting to the group versus sideline discussions, you should use better board etiquette. If discussions get personal and uncomfortable, you should be warned. If you don't listen to the warnings, you should lose your priviliges. The majority of us get this and the minority should refrain from violating basic chat/board tenets. With all due respect, we SHOULD all have better things to do.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I too will miss Karen's voice on ERE. Although reading ERE posts generally takes up too much of my more valuable recruiting & sourcing time, I have found it necessary to restrict my input when it come to Sourcing Ethics or Recruiting Ethics in general as very few people seem to agree with my feelings and would go to length in their comments trying to trash my beliefs.

    I have learned over the last year to just ignore those who believe that outright lying to candidates is an ethical recruiting practice and who promote that any successful recruiter has to rely on these practices to succeed.

    I have seen Karen's input on other mediums on the web so I doubt she feels bad about being banned here.

    Life goes on for all of us.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Dave,

    Thanks for the explanation...I too will miss the "good" part of what she brought to this community. My only concern here is that it takes more than one person to battle...I'm pretty sure she wasn't arguing with herself and if the people that complained enough to get her banned did so simply because their point of view was being challenged...then it was a bad decision in my opinion. I don't know the particulars so I'll keep my mind open at this point, but, it does take two to Tango, so, what happened to the others? I really don't recall her being on the "attack' side as much as the "defensive' side most of the time......I believe we should have the right to defend our beliefs/points of view here as long as it's kept civil.

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Dave,

    I respect your decision to openly discuss your stance on this matter and allow members to share their concerns. Quite often I hear others talk about passion. It is part of what drives us- it fuels us with the energy and commitment to stay the course. The person in question had passion to help others and was deeply rooted in standing up for what was right in the recruiting world. This person will continue being that light. I am dissapointed that this indivdual is no longer a voice on ERE but, recognize her voice will still be heard.

    Thank you

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I do agree with Dennis that the 50,000 "I would like a copy" posts were very annoying. I'm not sure why people thought that was ok when there is a private way to request a copy. I didn't see the post or post that got Karen kicked off so I have to do more research. I personally liked Karen's posts even though I may not have agreed with all of them.

    Joshua, I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about. I agree with most of the content but I feel it was tap dancing through the issue, perhaps it was the politicaly correct way to approach the subject.

    Am I to believe that Karen upset a paying advertiser or supporter (or several) of the ERE and that is why she was kicked off?

    David are you saying that she had personal conflicts with several people and voiced those conflicts on the boards thus she was dismissed?

    Lets assume she was not upsetting advertisers because that would be a ridiculous reason to kick her off. If I understand your post correctly she was removed because of personal conflicts with several ERE posters. Keeping in mind that I have not seen the posts the caused this... are they still available to read... I have read some of her posts that do interject personal opinion. Isn't that the point of an opinion though? For example she had a very strong and negative opinion about Jigsaw and basically called the president on the carpet. It was a little uncomfortable but certainly not grounds for silencing her. I don't care if she did it a 100 times. I use jigsaw and find it extreamly helpful in my job.

    In order to form an educated opinion about the dismissal of this ERE personality I would need to have all the facts. Do I need to research them myself or will you provide a link to the evidence.

    Thanks!

    William

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    HI David!

    Thanks for sharing your feed back with ERE members. I admit I have been a member for quite some time myself and have always found the discussions lively and informative. I am always open to reading/hearing others views. I think it is unfortunate you had to "BAN" someone from the group.

    I do not know the whole situation, I have alway found the "person in question" feed back informative and I may have not always agreed with it. I do not even know her at all nor responded to any of her posts.

    What I would like to know is a how many complaints is considered multiple you stated there were"multiple complaints from a broad group of ERE members." Is this 10, 20, 500, 1000, 5,000, 10,000, 20,000?? As you stated previously "today there are over 50,000 members of the ERE Network" Even if you received 1,000 complaints that compliant ratio is very slim for over 50,000 members. I really would like to know how many complaints you recieved on this topic.

    I think that everyone should have a voice. The best thing about ERE is you don't have to chose to read every post, if you don't like how they are responding....Make a choice and don't read it. As simple as that. Not every one is going to agree, so I just need to be aware if I post something and receive complaints, how many is too many complaints to be banned........

    Thanks for your help!

    Kim

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    I'm new to ERE and I was not personally upset with anything that transpired between this person and myself whether she agreed or not. In fact I have a bigger complaint regarding people who use postings for personal communications rather than a discussion that will benefit the group as a whole. If someone says I have this form I use, I'd like people who want a copy of the form to send an email and not post "I'd like the form" so by the end of the week there are 200 postings of "I'd like the form".

    So while I won't debate your decision given my lack of insight into the issues, I would like to see some communication to members about restricting personal conversations to email between the two members involved so that the board can serve as a forum for open ideas and communication.

    Dennis Palatine Technology Services, LLC

  • 1 point 23 months ago

    Thank you David, for explaining the decision. Yours is a very difficult position and we are fortunate to have your guidance on these thorny issues.